Unity and nihilism in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and 火, 消防 

 (ASOIAF) have truly gone their separate ways. Plot lines and character arcs have taken drastically different trajectories, and, as the two series continue to diverge, the points of comparison between them become more prominent, not only in terms of story but also in terms of theme and character development.

and ASOIAF’s contrasting approach to interpersonal relationships and, by extension, nihilism, largely because (spoiler alert) … I think the show handles it better.

sample chapter below. Proceed at your own discretion**

It’s already been discussed at length but one of the factors that truly sets

 apart from other works of fantasy – indeed, from other works of fiction – is its readiness to subvert expectations, to kill off main characters and let the baddies win. In many ways, both series purport an existentially nihilistic worldview: that life is meaningless and, therefore, effort is futile. Though I wouldn’t quite rank them on level with Camus’ “The Myth of Sisyphus,” both series frequently remind us that

and that having the best of intentions does not guarantee success.

In such a narrative, the line between cynicism and outright pessimism is thin and (unfortunately, for the purposes of this essay) highly subjective. Nonetheless, it’s safe to say that we all have our limits; we all need the negativity tempered with some positivity to remain invested.

For me, this need manifests as a preoccupation with the interpersonal relationships between the characters, something the books and the show have chosen to handle in increasingly different ways.

 has opted to maintain or emphasize the unity between characters who, in the books, are, at best, isolated from one another and, at worst, antagonistic. Personally, this is one of the advantages the show has over the books because, for me, nihilism works better on a narrative level than an interpersonal one.

For example, I appreciate the irony and futility behind the War of the 5 Kings: a civil war that tears the country apart to decide who sits on an iron chair that Robert Baratheon established in book and season 1 is both figuratively and literally uncomfortable. I like how the best-laid plans of dragons and direwolves often go awry, from King Aegon “Egg” Targaryen’s policies to help the peasantry to Daenerys’ abolitionist mission in Essos to Ned Stark’s decision to offer Cersei a chance to escape Robert’s wrath. However, when such an outlook is applied repeatedly to the relationships between characters, my investment begins to slip.

Granted, many of the relational changes are products of plot divergences and, until both series are finished, there’s only so much one can analyze about incomplete character arcs. Young Griff’s omission frees Varys and Tyrion up to share a sincere and fairly uncomplicated friendship and, without Lady Stoneheart’s involvement, Brienne and Jaime are able to part ways in the Riverlands with a poignant hand wave. I look forward to comparing and contrasting these storylines with their literary counterparts one day but until season 8 airs and

However, in cases in which the nature of the relationship has no bearing on the plot,

’s tendency to withhold tenderness between characters feels excessive whereas the show’s added emotional beats, not only temper the pessimism (without compromising the brutality and high stakes of the narrative) and actually aid character development.

One of the earliest examples of this is Tyrion and Sansa’s spousal relationship. Structurally, the two storylines are more or less identical in the show and books. Tyrion and Sansa are married against their will, Tyrion resolves not to consummate their union until Sansa consents and then they’re separated after Joffrey’s assassination. However, their dynamic is significantly chillier in ASOIAF.

Sansa’s misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would glady have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes.

This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life. And she hated him … His wife was too well-trained to say an unkind word but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked at his body was more than he could bear” – A Storm of Swords

In the show, by contrast, we get to see Sansa and Tyrion bonding over their shared outcast status as “the disgraced daughter and the demon monkey.” He later claims that his “wife hates [him]” after the news of the Robb and Catelyn’s deaths reaches King’s Landing, but they still share some tender moments at the Purple Wedding.

Tyrion reaches out and takes Sansa’s hand when Joffrey’s dwarfish reenactment of the War of the 5 Kings reaches Robb’s beheading and Sansa spares him the shame of crawling under the table to retrieve Joffrey’s goblet by picking it up herself and handing it to him. In 

, Sansa spends the wedding dinner in grief-stricken stupor and Tyrion suffers through the degrading dwarf tourney alone.

Usually, adaptations compromise the depth of the source material when they opt for the “nicer” route (please see 1995’s adaptation of

as evidence) but, here, it’s frankly more interesting when these characters get along.

Having Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage stalemate until they’re separated develops neither of their characters. Sansa’s dreams of marrying a handsome lord or prince continue to be dashed and Tyrion’s resentment towards the world, which finally breaks him at the end of

, gets more fodder but it’s nothing that isn’t communicated through other plot lines.

However, watching two such diametrically opposite characters find common ground and help each other reveals a different side to both of them, namely Sansa’s capacity to grow beyond her childhood notions of worthy men and Tyrion’s ability to successfully interact with someone outside his usual context of sex and politics.

An example that cropped up more recently is the contrast between Theon and Jeyne’s relationship and Theon and Sansa’s. To be fair, their storylines differ significantly more than Tyrion and Sansa’s. Since Sansa is a main character and Jeyne only a tertiary one, it makes sense for the development of Sansa and Theon’s relationship to factor more prominently into the plot than Theon and Jeyne’s.

However, both storylines reach similar climaxes, with both couples escaping into the northern wilderness, risking death in one direction and recapture in the other.

, we get very little warmth between him and Jeyne. Theon pities her and “[means] no hurt to her” and she acknowledges him as her hero while he’s carrying her through the snow but there’s little in the way of personal connection. By the time they’re captured by Stannis, Theon seems more irritated with her than anything. He silently curses her for struggling to remember Mikken’s name to prove her identity as Arya Stark and later reflects how he “hate[s] women weeping“ after listening to Jeyne cry all the way from Winterfell to Stannis’ encampment.

Granted, his annoyance is borne of desperation and exhaustion (and, yes, I realize that trauma does not make you a nicer person) but after everything they’ve been through together, for Theon to think of her with such annoyance veers into defeatist territory. What truly is the point in investing emotionally, as a reader, when these relationships amount to so little?

The show used more or less the same set up for a different purpose. While huddled under a fallen tree after running all night and wading through frigid water, Theon hugs Sansa to keep her warm and for a few seconds, both characters enjoy a respite from the horrors around them.

It demonstrates how Theon and Sansa have grown as characters. It showcases Sansa’s capacity for forgiveness, considering she refused to take his arm before her wedding, and it demonstrates Theon’s ability to care for others, to sacrifice his own welfare for someone else when he caused so much destruction for his self-aggrandizement in season 2.

Comparing the books to the show is a divisive topic to say the least. Both series have their strengths and weaknesses. I suppose what it boils down to is which approach strikes the deepest chord in the individual, which represents the human reaction to adversity most meaningfully.

In some respects, the interpersonal relationships between characters have no bearing on the nihilistic outlook of either series. Westeros continues to be a treacherous world in which giving one’s life for what’s right may leave no lasting impact and even the gentlest souls must make moral compromises to survive.

In other respects, though, the relationships make all the difference in the world. Though I can understand why many prefer ASOIAF’s exploration of human brokenness and its emphasis on internal struggle, for me, seeing characters in such an unforgiving world find a way to think outside of themselves and forge sincere emotional bonds with others, however briefly, is what keeps the narrative from slipping entirely into pessimism.

Have you already read all the books and/or don\'t care about spoilers? You can reveal/hide all the spoilers in the comments with the click of the buttons below.

Place the spoiler remarks inside this short code:

Remove the extra spaces between the word spoiler and the brackets, and the front slash and brackets before publishing your comment.

Edit: You (Petra) were the author of the article last year talking about exploring Theon’s PTSD right? That was you? Well, now that the season is over, what did you think of how it was handled (in both Sansa and Theon’s cases)?

Whew, that’s the best article released in years on this site. Well done lad.

I really enjoyed this article. WOTW definitely helps me get through the “long night” of waiting for the next season:)

Completely agree. This is exactly why I enjoyed the show much more then the books, to be completely honest, I almost always enjoy the movie/TV show better then the books..

I’m just a more visual person. The music in EP10 gave me more enjoyment then all of the last 2 books.

Wonderful article.I agree with pretty much everything.I know what ASOIAF and GOT are but too much doom and gloom sucks the joy out of watching or reading anything at least for me.And one of the things I enjoy most is the relationship between characters.Appart from the things you mentioned I loved the interactions between Arya and Lady Crane.Loved the fact that Gilly was happy and full wonder and not crying the whole voyage.Also I love the relationships that Jon has with Davos,Tormund and Edd.In ADwD he literally has no friends left.I know kill the boy and all that but damn my man took it to a whole other level lol.

So, I agree that the show spends more time developing relationships between the various dyads of characters that it sets up, but I disagree that the show is less nihilistic as a result, because the show pretty repeatedly has extremely nihilistic takes on broader social points, even as it works to humanize the relationships between individual pairings of characters.

I would look at this season’s Northern plot as an example of that. The broader social environment of the North in the books is broadly idealistic. The various Northern lords take on a great deal of personal risk to work toward the restoration of their ideal of what the North should be through the Starks. Their show counterparts, on the other hand, are governed much more by a sort of realpolitik. Fear cows Lords Manderly and Cerwyn into accepting that their North is lost and into acknowledging Bolton rule after both are traumatized by the loss of family at Frey/Bolton hands. Some are petty, with Lord Glover, rather than seeing any sort of Northern unity and any sense that they were all betrayed together, instead blaming Robb for leading his brother to his death. They are a people who have lost hope to fear and bitterness, rather than fighting on for some ideal.

I think there was something similar in the Night’s Watxh story last season. The book Watch reluctantly accepts Jon’s plans for the Wildlings, though they make their discomfort with them known. They only turn on Jon when it becomes clear that his plans against the Boltons put the Watch as an institution at risk. Their book counterparts, however, are just inveterate racists who will never accept the wildlings. Jon does nothing to trigger their attack accept for refusing to abandon the wildlings to die.

There’s a similar shift in Dany’s plot where the book version goes to great lengths to set up that the slavers, for all their violence and cruelty, are rational people who will accept compromises with Dany. It’s Dany’s own inability to understand the interests that govern the various Ghiscari factions that ultimately dooms her peace. In the show version, however, Tyrion negotiates a very favorable peace for the slavers, which they then break because they’re just inherently shifty and wicked. There is no peace to be had with them save through absolute force.

So yeah, the books often deal with characters in isolation, and often allow characters to remain distant from each other emotionally even when the plot brings them together, but they always work hard to make sure that they are not endorsing a nihilistic worldview, even as their characters may come to hold that view themselves. In the show, characters will cling to whomever happens to be next to them with a sort of desperate humanity, but to a certain degree it’s because the world around them is so cold and hopeless, so full of other people who are just irredeemably evil or are good people who have nevertheless been completely broken and stripped of any drive to fight back.

Excellent article. It is very interesting to compare and contrast ASOIAF and GoT, because (as you say) they both have their strengths and weaknesses, and whilst there are clear similarities between the two there are also some salient differences.

It is a real shame that George will never finish ASOIAF, because a complete in-depth comparison of the two at the end would have been fantastic to read, but I’m sure there will still be a lot more words written on the subject in the future anyway, and, if they are as good as this analysis, I look forward to reading them.

Speaking of nihilism: I am deeply despaired by no longer seeing a countdown clock of anything in the header of the WotW pages. Makes me realize just how very long our wait will be. And then to compound it, I get an email from Amazon telling me of an upcoming release from GRRM. Hopes dashed to discover it is (only!) a 20-year anniversary re-release of GoT. Sigh. Going to pull my blankie of depression back around my shoulders and crawl back under my rock. (But hell yes I pre-ordered a copy of the book!)

The books and the show are two different mediums and should be both respected and appreciated.

I read somewhere that the French Amazon has a WoW release date: March 9,2017. Don’t know if it’s legit.

If anything this, to me at least, confirms we won’t get WOW before S7

Rhaenys Stark: I read somewhere that the French Amazon has a WoW release date: March 9,2017. Don’t know if it’s legit.

It’s not. Amazon has a habit of throwing release dates up, probably just to fill a blank spot. But when the TWOW release date is set, we’ll hear it first from George RR Martin.

Do post people here prefer the show to the books? I only found out about the books after watching season 1, so I love the show of course. But the books offer so much more of the world, that I can’t see experiencing both and liking the show more.

The slavers in the books don’t hold up their end of the deal either. Dany opens up the fighting pits like they wanted, but they still attempt to poison her.

Shhhhh, that is a false flag attack by Dany’s supporters, who miraculously knew Belwas would eat it all.

I swear to god, sometimes theories are born from a desire to make something needlessly complex and convulated, when the answer is obvious and direct…..

Right now, I prefer the books to the show, but that will change if the series isn’t finished. After all, a story without an ending isn’t a story.

Edit: You (Petra) were the author of the article last year talking about exploring Theon’s PTSD right? That was you? Well, now that the season is over, what did you think of how it was handled (in both Sansa and Theon’s cases)?

Good question; yes, I believe it was Petra. And my personal view on the subject is that it was handled quite well in both cases. Theon maybe a little better. What do you think?

I do not like the filler masked us a training arc and immense and pointless world-building and the dozens of new pointless characters, not to mention some story arcs that ruined couple of characters for me. This is why I like the last couple of seasons more then the last 2 books.

It simply gave me everything I wanted and removed everything I disliked.

I also like the first couple of seasons more then the first 3 books, but this time it isn’t writing related, well except for 2-3 moments, but rather directorial and acting ones.

I am simply a visual person. I liked Neds execution in the books. I loved it in the show.

Ned seeing Arya, screaming ”Bealor!” to Yoren, his final look to see if Arya is still watching, the sound dropping, him whispering….etc.

Same with the RW and most moments in the first 3 seasons and even 4.

I simply enjoy the TV medium, much, much more.

WallyFrench: Do post people here prefer the show to the books? I only found out about the books after watching season 1, so I love the show of course. But the books offer so much more of the world, that I can’t see experiencing both and liking the show more

That isn’t what this article is about, though. It’s addressing one specific area.

Speaking of nihilism:I am deeply despaired by no longer seeing a countdown clock of anything in the header of the WotW pages.Makes me realize just how very long our wait will be.And then to compound it, I get an email from Amazon telling me of an upcoming release from GRRM.Hopes dashed to discover it is (only!) a 20-year anniversary re-release of GoT.Sigh.Going to pull my blankie of depression back around my shoulders and crawl back under my rock.(But hell yes I pre-ordered a copy of the book!)

Well, they can’t start a count-down clock until they know exactly when season 7 is going to begin. Also, they usually make their wallpaper up on the top as a scene from the upcoming season. I am sure once the first good promo photos are released and a set date and time for the start of season 7 is announced, then the site will update and change the header here. (I asked this same question as you last year and was given the information I am passing along to you)

My edit ran out but I really wanted to say this, because you mention it.

”It offers so much more of the world” is exactly why like the show more. I do not want Vale politics, nor do I want a in-depth view of the giscari culture, I do not want to see Jon counting cheese and negotiating with the Iron Bank, I do not want to read about Lady Dustin, Lord Maryweather, Lord Gilbert, Yezhen mo…..etc. You get my point.

I thought the world-building in the first 3 books way very balanced and good. But the last 2 simply go overboard. Same with the countless, and frankly pointless new characters, each more ridiculous then the other, to top that they are pointless and serve little to no purpose.

It is meant to try and convince us that this is a real world, but I believe it fails miserably, it is simply unable to give a fraction of the substance the first 3 books had in 1-2 chapters, in 10 or more.(same with character development, what used to take 3 chapters now takes 7-9.)

After all, a story without an ending isn’t a story.

It’s hard to say because they are very different mediums each with its strengths that are different to the other.One thing that is a plus in the books is that it offers an insight into the mind of our main characters,something obviously the Tv show can’t do.I enjoy the POV structure at least in the first three books.The books also have more space to explore its various themes and the dilemmas of the characters in a way that the show can not.Not to mention that this is all thanks to George and all merit should go to him for creating the world and a complex story that is so compelling to us all.But using the word prefer loosely I do prefer the show.

This is an anomaly for me because almost always I prefer the book version and not the adaption of something.The first four seasons are neck and neck with the books and I do like Clash better then season 2 but I must admit that I have enjoyed the last two seasons more than books four and five.Maybe it’s because I have not missed the things that they have cut or because reading the last two books made me struggle to connect even with my favourite characters but this is how I feel.

Thank you so much. Yeah, that was my article. I really like how both Theon and Sansa’s traumas were handled. I think Sansa’s confrontation with Littlefinger in ep. 5 was very powerful, particularly her telling him that she can still physically feel what Ramsay did to her. Though the psychological impact of rape wasn’t addressed, the show still made clear that her abuse has had long term consequences. As for Theon, I love that he still exhibits some of the mannerisms he had as Reek. He didn’t “snap out” of his brainwashing and become a humbler version of his season 2 self. Though I wish his scene with Yara in Volantis had been built up to differently, I didn’t mind her harshness. To me, it didn’t trivialize his PTSD. It was just a sister trying to help her brother in the only way she knew how. How did you find it?

I’ve always thought that the books put an emphasis on futility of human efforts, which can be QUITE frustrating for readers but is in fact a strong medieval theme (if I remember correctly…) There is this popular classic “O Fortuna” with medieval lyrics that are all about futility and the mercilessness of fortune, and the related medieval painting of the wheel of fortune alternately favouring and throwing down rulers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna#/media/File:CarminaBurana_wheel.jpg Have a look the English translation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Fortuna, it even has a line about “the game” 🙂

For me, (book reader first waaaay back in the day) the show is the show, and the books are the books. Different, not better or worse.

This article is premised on the idea that ASOIAF is nihilistic, which George R. R. Martin has vehemently denied at length. His protagonists are regularly faced with how to uphold ideals in a world where, unlike in some other stories, such intentions are not automatically rewarded, is a regular theme. But that’s not nihilism. You can see an example of this as early as the prologue to

A Game of Thrones, where Will marvels that Waymar Royce, who was rather callow and arrogant, shows genuine bravery and looks a real man of the Night’s Watch when he faces essentially certain defeat at the hands of the Others.

The debate about wanting to be a “true knight” is another example of this theme. Brienne’s whole character, and particularly her plot in AFFC, shows her constant resolve to stay true to her ideals even in the hellish landscape of the wartorn Riverlands. Around the same time, Jaime’s plot since ASOS is driven by his rediscovery of his desire to be a proper Kingsguard. The Hound retreated into comfortable nihilism after his brother Gregor’s childhood assault, but is shaken out of this.

Usually, adaptations compromise the depth of the source material when they opt for the “nicer” route (please see 1995’s adaptation of The Scarlet Letter and the 1999 live-action version of Animal Farm as evidence) but, here, it’s frankly more interesting when these characters get along.

Having Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage stalemate until they’re separated develops neither of their characters. Sansa’s dreams of marrying a handsome lord or prince continue to be dashed and Tyrion’s resentment towards the world, which finally breaks him at the end of A Storm of Swords, gets more fodder but it’s nothing that isn’t communicated through other plot lines.

This is absolutely another instance where making things “nicer” compromises the depth of the source material. Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage in the books does develop both their characters: it’s part of their downward psychological spirals in both books.

Sansa has already been demonstrating the capacity to grow beyond childhood notions of worthy men in the story. Indeed, she recognizes that Tyrion is kinder than the other Lannisters. But that doesn’t mean she has or should have any interest in being married to him. Tyrion, meanwhile, has huge psychological issues with women, which the marriage exacerbates. He’s not supposed to be demonstrating the ability “to successfully interact with someone outside his usual context of sex and politics.” Having him do that is completely soft-pedaling his character arc.

The idea of them having a “shared outcast status” is a fantasy for people who just want all the “good” characters to get along, when ASOIAF is about how making you sympathize with people on different sides with diametrically opposed interests. Tyrion is the Lannister finance minister; he is working to bring down Sansa’s family. They are not on the same side, which is something GRRM never forgets, and Tyrion being polite on a personal level does not alter this. The whole marriage is a plot to usurp the Starks’ lands and titles for Tywin’s purposes.

Guest, The Carmina Burana are full of positive songs, too, though. ‘In taverna quando sumus….’

I have said it time and again, but I think that the primary type of relationships enhanced by the show wrt the the books are the male-female ones. Apart from the Sansa-Tyrion and Theon-Jeyne/Sansa mentioned in this text, I think that the show improves greatly:

– Cersei/Jaime and Cersei/Tyrion. In the books, Jaime abandons Cersei – and their children – because she slept around. Not because she killed, or tortured. Because she slept around. Cersei/Tyrion are also more friendly in the show. They grudgingly respect each other.

– Dany/Daario. Just what the hell is book Dany/Daario, I don’t even.

– Tyrion/Shae. She’s actually fond of him!

Also, I don’t think the books have even ONE example of a man and a woman being friendly and respectful of each other without being romantic. At least I’m striving to think of one and failing.

Also, I don’t think the books have even ONE example of a man and a woman being friendly and respectful of each other without being romantic. At least I’m striving to think of one and failing.

There are many. Dany and most of her advisors other than Jorah (she is friendly to him, whereas he’s a possessive would-be suitor) would be an obvious nexus; but Catelyn has friendly interactions with men on Robb’s side; Sansa manages to acquire some once she leaves KL (e.g., Lothor Brune); Arya has a variety of male friends (for instance, Hot Pie; and Gendry is, as yet, just a friend, though you can read potential romantic subtext in their interactions); and so on.

“Cersei/Tyrion. In the books, Jaime abandons Cersei – and their children – because she slept around. Not because she killed, or tortured. Because she slept around.”

What’s the point of repeating that Jaime left her because she slept around? Is that not a reasonable reason to do so by Jaime who has remained faithful to her his whole life despite women throwing themselves at him?

Also I’ll disagree that the changes you mentioned are better in the show. The books are great for those complicated and dark relationships rather than those made for tv consumption.

Sansa/Tyrion relationship in the show is what made me start liking Sansa as a character. While I was really annoyed by it in the books. Now she is in my top 3, while in the books I can hardly care for her.

Tyrion/Shae, It was simply better. As Shae herself was a better character, something Martin himself admited. And it made Tyrion himself better for me.

Dany/Jorah and Dany/Daario aren’t even worth mentioning, they are both ridiculously bad. The writing improved both of them but Ian Glenn’s acting improved theirs the most.

Cersei/Jaime is the relationship I like the most. Because it simply believable as Cersei is a human being, thanks to Lena, and not a Disney villain.

Sean C., Those aren’t relationships between main characters, though? And Arya is a prepubescent tomboy, not a grown-up woman.

No, I don’t think ‘sleeping around’ is a good reason to abandon someone *when you excuse their murdering and torture* (important part!). If cheating is all you are angry about in this particular situation, then you are a very selfish person.

I would probably excuse my SO cheating on me, especially if they were in a vulnerable emotional state. But torture? Never.

I’m intrigued by the show’s emphasis on sibling relationships, particularly between brothers and sisters. Scenes like Lyanna & Ned’s reunion at the ToJ, Sansa and Jon’s reunion at the Wall and Yara and Theon’s conversation in Volantis are afforded the sort of editing and emotional scoring usually reserved for romantic couples. As someone who’s borderline aromantic, it’s much appreciated.

As for your point about ASOIAF, I think Brienne’s relationships with Pod and Jaime are quite mutually respectful. I know many consider Jaime and Brienne’s dynamic to be a romantic one, but, personally, I’ve always seen it as platonic.

Excellent article and I have to agree with it more than

Because while Martin *says* the books aren’t nihilistic and perhaps that wasn’t his original intention, they certainly tend to *read* as such. Now as the article’s author notes, its possible Martin has a master plan and the ending of the series might completely change the tone so far….but well we haven’t seen the ending yet and its nowhere in sight. So yeah, maybe I’d feel differently if/when I ever got to read ADOS but going on what I see NOW, ASOIAF is *very* nihilistic.

And a huge part of that comes from the isolation of all the characters as the author notes; which again I think colors some of the show’s decisions not just regarding Theon/Sansa but almost perhaps most notably this season with the Sansa/Jon reunion as well, which viewers consistently found to be one of the few hope spots in the darkness. This is also why we got Theon/Yara’s newly reconstructed bond as well.

There are certain aspects like Iron Bank loan or manning castles that would be boring for the show. He mentioned Greyguard so he had a plan in the show. I wish we can see how Jon is able to establish alliance through marriage as he did in the books between Alys and Sigorn. We might see some version of it in next season as wildlings needs to be established south of the Wall and marriage is the best way to do it.

Simply Jon being more than just a action hero, swordfighting and being naive. Now want to see him as a proper King, dealing with things as one because so far for me he wouldn’t make a good King but let’s see after next season. Kit works good in fights and Iam not gonna criticize them for it. I enjoy his battles but let’s hope for a bit of politics. In the books he understood Northern politics and helped Stannis with his campaign.

Want to see him being a bit more intelligent, less naive and not saying he wasn’t in the books but also a lot younger.

In my opinion the books aren’t nihilistic at all. Decisions and actions just lead to logical conclusions. It doesn’t matter what the intentions or ideology behind the actions are.

Petra, I find it interesting that you note that you are to an extent aromantic, and that made you interested in the sibling relationships. I’m myself mostly an ace, which made me interested in the friendships. 🙂

I’ll take your point about Brienne and Pod, although, eh, those two aren’t friends, either, are they? More like a teacher and student.

When I think about male-female vs. male-male friendships, it’s just… Somehow, I have trouble seeing a scene similar to the Dany-Tyrion one where they are standing nearly level with each other and she makes him her Hand, and you just wish them to hug, in ASOIAF. (There would be a cynical running commentary from Tyrion all the way, undermining it completely.) But those Jon-Davos or Davos-Tormund bro-ing scenes? Easily.

Those aren’t relationships between main characters, though? And Arya is a prepubescent tomboy, not a grown-up woman.

If by “main character” you mean “POV characters”, well, the POVs don’t tend to interact for extended periods, at least since the first book. Jon and Sam are both POVs, but they are seldom in the same place since Sam became a POV; the bulk of their friendship occurred solely in Jon’s chapters in AGOT and ACOK.

Dany and Barristan would still meet your criterion, to name one.

I don’t like the last two books and I don’t think that GRRM is able to finish this story, so I think that investment in the books is just pointless.

There are parts even in the last two books where some scenes or plots are better than the show, but I just don’t care, becasuse I don’t trust GRRM. I think he improvises too much, he doesn’t have detailed plan for the plot and he lost control of his own story.

Do post people here prefer the show to the books?

I think you’ll find a variety of people here: those who prefer the books, those who prefer the show, and those who can find admiration and enjoyment in both venues.

Personally, I prefer the show, mainly for the reason this article hints at: the ‘improved’ relationships. And not only the improved relationships, but also for what I perceive to be the improvement of a majority of characters. For instance, I am an uber Sansa fan. She is my number one and I will defend her to the death. Book Sansa, on the other hand, I don’t really care for. Similarly, I don’t care for Book Tyrion, while Show Tyrion I like a lot. Brienne is another that I didn’t really think about in the books, but Show Brienne….I love her. Honestly, I can say the same about Margaery (although, Loras was a pale comparison to his book counterpart), Cersei, Catelyn, Shireen, Podrick, Bronn, Gilly, etc. I feel like the show fleshes these characters out more, and they do so through strength of these relationships and how they present them.

Now, I know that a lot of book readers think the show has “WHITEWASHED!” every character (i.e. taken out the negative aspects of who they are and either replaced them with positive ones, or just ignored the ‘bad’ altogether), and by and large, I think they have a point. But for me, I prefer this version. I feel like the story itself is bleak enough without the added ‘bonus’ of having main characters you can’t even root for.

Conversely, the only time I think these characters suffer in the show is when they’re subject to bad writing (the Sand Snakes) or inconsistent writing (Sansa) for the sake of ‘advancing’ the overall narrative. A poster on Tumblr (“ApprenticeMockingbird”, although I’m sure she reblogged this from someone else) once said that D&D, “…make the mistake of thinking people care more about the story then they do about the characters which is why they so easily combine characters, or make them act “out of character”, or change their motivations, or omit them altogether.” I completely agree with that statement. The strength of D&D’s version (in my opinion) is in these relationships and these characters, and when they stop focusing on them, and start focusing on the “story”, I think the characters suffer. Matter of fact, now that I think about it, I’m willing to bet that the majority of complaints that have come out of book readers have been for this very reason: the sacrifice each character’s ‘dignity’ for the sake of the larger narrative. We need Sansa married to Ramsay, so we’ll sacrifice LF’s intelligence to make that happen. We need to be rid of House Baratheon this season, so we’ll have him sacrifice his daughter, and then be killed by Brienne (because she’s conveniently in the North and not the Riverlands dealing with her own story). We’ll just replace a tertiary character (Jeyne) with a main character (Sansa) because it gets us closer to the endgame (*I cringe so hard*)

…While I understand every single reason for why they made the changes they did, I think by doing some of the things they’ve done, it oftentimes weakens what is their greatest strengths: the relationships, and the characters. If they continue to write characters in a manner that makes sense, then yeah, I’ll totally stand with “the show is better” crowd. But if they, once again, start sacrificing everyone’s dignity on the altar of expediency, then the show will suffer (in my opinion).

It is reasonable reason for Jaime, but it is reason for soap operas. The reason from the show is much stronger and it is connected deeply with Jaime’s past.

Great article. Having read almost everything GRRM has ever published besides Wild Cards, I do think he tends toward pessimism and it shows. It can work better in smaller stories/smaller doses than it does in a fantasy series thousands of pages long.

Tyrion is in general more likeable in the show than in the books. He didn’t consummate the marriage in the books but he was going for it … but Sansa was crying … in the show he didn’t even touch her. Tyrion lost his nose in the books and in the show Peter maintains his face complete with only a scar… I don’t doubt he believes in Danny in the show and he doesn’t like to watch people die. Will it happen like that in the books??? … Why did he send Young Griff to Westeros before meeting Danny??? Also, Varys is much more likeable in the show. He didn’t make the little birds kill anyone and apparently he is really trying to help Danny because it’s the best for the kingdom.

Regarding Theon, he is totally broken in the books … I love how Bran tried to communicate with him. That chapter is very sweet. Theon believes the trees know his name. That means Bran kind of forgave him for what he did, which is more powerful than Sansa forgiving him, IMO.

I also want to know how the relationship between Sansa and Jon is going to be handle in the books. I suppose they are going to be the first Starks to meet in the books too. Because of what happened to Sansa in season 5, she is totally different.

The good thing about the changes of the show is that I still want to read the books. I’m starting to look them as different stories at this point.

I don’t think there is a reason for “sacrifice” any more. They made some becasuse they were forced to make a coherent story from GRRM’s mess in the last two books. Not everything can fit together perfectly under those circumstances.

To anyone wondering if GRRM is pessimistic about male/female relationships, just check out Meathouse Man (if you have the stomach for it. Disturbing story but very well done for what it is).

You’re applying your logic and morality to a person who is in a queen in a medevil time period. Torture and violence were par for the course for most monarchs. However Jaime was entirely faithful to Cersei his whole life. Not only that but the multiple acts of infidelity showed Jaime how selfish Cersei was.

I can’t with people criticizing George RR Martin work, the man is a genius, his work is a master piece, there is no other fantasy story which can be compared with A Song of Ice and Fire in terms of quality and complexity sice LotR, so at least you are Tolkien, shut up and enjoy the books, or don’t read them if you dislike them so much, but don’t criticize his work because the man is a friking genius. Reading is not for everyone, specially nowadays, I get that, but just because some people don’t have the ability to appreciate the books does not mean the books are bad or lack quality. I feel the same way when people criticize Dan and Dave because they didnt satisfy their personal demands; they are giving us the best show on television! People are so petty sometimes.

Thank you so much. Yeah, that was my article. I really like how both Theon and Sansa’s traumas were handled. I think Sansa’s confrontation with Littlefinger in ep. 5 was very powerful, particularly her telling him that she can still physically feel what Ramsay did to her. Though the psychological impact of rape wasn’t addressed, the show still made clear that her abuse has had long term consequences. As for Theon, I love that he still exhibits some of the mannerisms he had as Reek. He didn’t “snap out” of his brainwashing and become a humbler version of his season 2 self. Though I wish his scene with Yara in Volantis had been built up to differently, I didn’t mind her harshness. To me, it didn’t trivialize his PTSD. It was just a sister trying to help her brother in the only way she knew how. How did you find it?

I was incredibly surprised at how well they handled both of their traumas. Matter of fact I’m grateful that they dealt with it as extensively as they did (especially in Sansa’s case). Granted, I did not think they were just going to sweep her rape under the rug (a la Jaime/Cersei), but I also did not think that it would it feature so predominantly in all of her motivations and interactions. It is a core part of her ethos now, and I think we haven’t seen the complete ‘aftershock’ of it all. There are still tremors going on and I think all of those tremors are and will be psychological.

I mean, you have a girl who–5 seasons ago–watched in absolute horror as Ser Hugh of the Vale was killed at the Hand’s Tourney. Now, this woman is watching–unflinchingly–as her husband is mauled to death by dogs. She even throws in a smile for good measure.

You have a girl who has spent the majority of her life believing in heroes and knights and always hoping someone would come and save/protect her (Robb, Stannis, LF, etc.,) to a woman who rebuffs Jon’s promise of protection by saying, “No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone.” And that disillusion extends even to the gods, when she tell LF (in the godswood, ironically enough), that she does’t pray or do any of that stuff anymore. Because post season 5 Sansa is no longer waiting, wanting, or expecting anyone to save her, not even the gods.

Mentally, she knows she should trust Jon (“Jon is Jon. He’s my brother. I trust him.”) but emotionally, she doesn’t (which causes her to withhold information from him). I can almost HEAR season 6 Sansa saying Book Sansa’s, “she had once loved…and admired…she would not make that mistake again.”

I mean, it’s fascinating to watch. Because even though you know she was already trending towards distrust and disillusion, I think her rape/abuse sealed the deal and added in heartlessness (towards her enemies) as an added bonus. I did see the psychological impact and I think her character will manifest those qualities for the foreseeable future.

All of this makes wonder: what happens to her in the books that makes her this way? If Ramsay raping and abusing her finally broke her, what breaks her in the books? It’s obviously not going to be Ramsay, so…who/what?

Anywho, I’m impressed. I’m grateful. I’m sincerely pleased that they dealt with her PTSD and Theon’s as well. I’m glad that it was realistic (in both their cases) and I’m glad that they’re continuing to present these character as people who are actively living in the reality of brokenness.

All of this makes wonder: what happens to her in the books that makes her this way?

That presumes she’s going to end up in a similar headspace in the books, which there’s no particular reason to think is the case. Book Sansa’s emotional arc has been very different from Show Sansa’s, even before the divergence in Season 5. That’s true for other characters as well.

Stannis is respectful of Selyse and there’s no romance there. I’ll see myself out.

Thank you for this article. I enjoyed it greatly. I’d perhaps argue that Camus’ existential absurdism is a better fit to this world than a nihilistic one or Beckett’s bleaker theatricalisation of the absurd. Camus’ absurd hero has much in common with Jon Snow in particular in that he struggles again and again to achieve his goals and has them and the joys of life taken from him just as he has seemed to succeed. Or again when he is faced with an impossible choice that will leaves him damaged or in pain – betraying his wildling love to fulfill his vows to his NW brothers who in the end betray him. Sisyphus’ is struggle to repeat his ongoing task is also made manifest in Thorne’s last words condemning Jon to a never ending battles, death and rebirth, just as the Greek gods conemned Sysiphus for seeking eternal life. This journey however is not as you point out without redemption, or rather warmth, Jon like Camus takes solace in the relationships at hand, in the momentary joys of nature (hottubbing and finding with Egritte where it was not expected). Again when he is reborn he tells us he wants to go somewhere sunny and to forget the troubles of the world just as Camus took pleasure in the sun and sea of an Algerian coast line despite the disease, war and death that surrounded him. And just like Jon, Camus chose to fight for what was right even when the left, his brothers had turned on him for his critique of their unwavering support of Stalin and the Soviet Union. Again Jon mirrors Sysiphus because he chooses not to run, to escape the turmoil, partly by persuasion but also because he knows in his heart he cannot escape and the thing he wishes to put aside will eventually find him. Jon in essence owns the thing, his rock, his duty and would like Sysiphus do it all again. And perhaps when Winterfell is no more and the wall is gone he will be allowed to smile seeing life as an absurd thing filled with joy and pain and knowing that these things are his to own.

I don’t think there is a reason for “sacrifice” any more. They made some becasuse they were forced to make a coherent story from GRRM’s mess in the last two books. Not everything can fit together perfectly under those circumstances.

I can agree with this. Especially since I think we’re at the point where everyone will be at in TWOW. I think the characters we get from here on out will be how they’ll be in the books, and the story that comes from it will be the same.

Btw, I agree with you that the show’s motivation for a Jaime/Cersei falling out and eventual confrontation is better than the book. I feel like it gets to the very heart of both of these characters to make their discord with each other about life and death/honor and dishonor more than who she slept with.

Edit: Good grief. What is with my little icon? It either doesn’t appear, or it appears as something different. I’m confused. Can we just start registering accounts? 😀 Please?

Excellent post Patra. I love these kinds of comparisions because they are an example of what each medium is does best, or at least hat each medium focuses on for the reader/watcher

However, in cases in which the nature of the relationship has no bearing on the plot, ASOIAF’s tendency to withhold tenderness between characters feels excessive whereas the show’s added emotional beats, not only temper the pessimism (without compromising the brutality and high stakes of the narrative) and actually aid character development.

There were several times in the books where I had to stop and catch my breath. It was all so relentless, the writing so good and descriptive, that I found myself needing some air Perhap it was that very tenderness, the emotional beats that the story gives, that I was missing. There were many moments like this where a picture is worth a thousand words, and a simple touch of hands (like Tyrion for Sansa) or a look (when Jon and Sansa are talking about snow and remembering their father) does indeed aid character development and relationship development.

Thats not to say there isn’t any of this in the books, of course there is, but its a different way of expressing it.

I suppose what it boils down to is which approach strikes the deepest chord in the individual, which represents the human reaction to adversity most meaningfully.

If you don’t mind I’d like to use this quote every time there is another flame war of the book versus show. That is just as perfect as you can get. It matters only how you react to each one, really.

Though I can understand why many prefer ASOIAF’s exploration of human brokenness and its emphasis on internal struggle, for me, seeing characters in such an unforgiving world find a way to think outside of themselves and forge sincere emotional bonds with others, however briefly, is what keeps the narrative from slipping entirely into pessimism.

Its no fantasy – we do live in an unforgiving world, with many of us in various stages of brokeness. It is the emotional bonds we have that keep us present, that keeps us from considering jumping through that window into oblivion. So too in the story, or any story, which is why I always appreciate that bonding, showing life at its best.

Sean C.: That presumes she’s going to end up in a similar headspace in the books, which there’s no particular reason to think is the case.Book Sansa’s emotional arc has been very different from Show Sansa’s, even before the divergence in Season 5.That’s true for other characters as well.

You realize this sites only been around for two years, right? 🙂

t is a real shame that George will never finish ASOIAF, because a complete in-depth comparison of the two at the end would have been fantastic to read, but I’m sure there will still be a lot more words written on the subject in the future anyway, and, if they are as good as this analysis, I look forward to reading them.

Yeah I don’t hold out much hope for the. It would have been wonderful to read, and compare as this post does. Hope I am wrong but suspect Im right

Ned seeing Arya, screaming ”Bealor!” to Yoren, his final look to see if Arya is still watching, the sound dropping, him whispering….etc.

Im a visual person also, and when I read I basically have a film projector in my head showing me the images as I read (some people can ‘hear’ a narrative as they read; I don’t but see images instead ) This scene was just as powerful to me in the book as it was in the show. I don’t think Patra is saying the book has none of this – it does in spades, but sometimes the details get in the way.

…While I understand every single reason for why they made the changes they did, I think by doing some of the things they’ve done, it oftentimes weakens what is their greatest strengths: the relationships, and the characters. If they continue to write characters in a manner that makes sense, then yeah, I’ll totally stand with “the show is better” crowd. But if they, once again, start sacrificing everyone’s dignity on the altar of expediency, then the show will suffer (in my opinion).

Certainly have seen that; sometimes it works but many times I scratch my head wondering just what they were doing. I worry,down the road, if the writing will continue in this mode, or rise above it.

but don’t criticize his work because the man is a friking geniu

There are many writers out there who are called geniuses but if the writing doesn’t work for me, well they much not have been smart enough to capture me (tho I do admit I loved Martins writing – I just could have done without the filler that the show thankfully has cut way back. ) And just because I do happen to like a book, a movie or a sho, I still have the right to criticize when I think its nec. Thats why I am here – to discuss ideas, opinions, options, possibilties. If not, why are we here?

In the books, Jaime abandons Cersei – and their children – because she slept around. Not because she killed, or tortured. Because she slept around.

First of all, Jaime didn’t abandon Tommen. In his last AFFC chapter, he plans on going to King’s Landing, take Tommen away from Cersei and replace her entire Small Council. As for the murders and tortures, Cersei keeps most of her shady dealings secret. And since Jaime is the one who pushed Bran out the window and offered to kill Robert on many occasions, leaving Cersei because she killed a few nobodies would be quite hypocritical.

That’s meant to be “finding love with Egritte”

It’s easy to see who grew up reading Harry Potter vs Lord of the Rings in these posts. 🙂

I like your reply. Nice to have someone responding to a philosophical exploration of themes with out getting into the old boring arguments about whether the books or the show are better. Simply put this argument is absurd.

None of the relationships you cited which were “changed” in the TV series were better for it.

You haven’t really addressed the wider picture of just how little TV-Sansa’s storyarc makes sense. Yes, there are pleasant little “moments” between characters, but do they add up to a coherent whole?

In other cases you cite, the TV series didn’t do something “better” but simply different. I.e. you say that the TV show was free to display Tyrion and Varys as true friends; this isn’t something hidden in the books it had more freedom to reveal, it was simply a total change. And yes, good material. But how is this “improved” when it didn’t exist in the original? Even if you prefer it?

The only thing the TV show sort of did better was side characters who weren’t in focus in the novels, i.e. what the Tyrells were doing “off screen” or the Grey Worm/Missandei relationship.

“His protagonists are regularly faced with how to uphold ideals in a world where, unlike in some other stories, such intentions are not automatically rewarded, is a regular theme. But that’s not nihilism.”

Thanks for saving me a long rant. I also reject the OP’s base premise that the books’ worldview constitutes nihilism.

We all live in a world like Planetos where the relationship between what people deserve and what they get is tenuous at best. Randomness happens, all the time, and that makes most people so uncomfortable that they go around making up religions and stuff as a security blanket. We’d like it to be different, for justice always to prevail, but the fact that it doesn’t is just realism.

In no way does that state of affairs negate the need for people to make ethical choices or tarnish the efforts of those who try to do the right thing. Nowhere do I see the author suggesting that people shouldn’t do their best with the hand they’re dealt, or should cease to look for small beauties and kindnesses in the everyday – the things that make life worth living even in terrible times. I actually find GRRM a deeply humanistic writer!

If you’re going to dismiss the counterexamples as “not main characters”, you should at least state who you consider “main characters”. In a cast as big as ASOIAF’s, that is a relevant question.

It’s based on the email address you input when you comment. Are you changing the email(s) when you comment? Gravatar provides the image based on the email you input. The image being tied to your gravatar acct. Hope that helps.

It’s easy to see who grew up reading Harry Potter vs Lord of the Ringsin these posts. 🙂

These Harry Potter kids don’t get the bleakness of life. Like most participation trophy winners

Awesome post. People get so uncomfortable with the randomness of life that they invent mythologies

Isn’t that a bit like calling Star Wars nihilistic after watching Empire but before watching Jedi?

A Murder of Crows: Season six thoughts, season seven predictions ( 256 )

Give us your Owns and favorite moments from Season 6! ( 135 )

Game of Thrones season 7 premiere date will be later than usual ( 118 )

The winner of a Varys figure from Dark Horse is...

Unity and nihilism in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire

A Murder of Crows: Season six thoughts, season seven predictions

Give us your Owns and favorite moments from Season 6!

Zeus on Unity and nihilism in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire

Tycho Nestoris on Unity and nihilism in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire

Mike Heywood on Unity and nihilism in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire